Google's Web Spam Team - You Can Run, But You Can't Hide
Submitted by Jeremy Palmer on Wed, 04/30/2008 - 20:53.
When I created this blog a few years back I had two goals:
1 - Help people learn from my successes
2 - Help people learn from my mistakes
This post is about learning from my mistakes.
Back in 2004 and 2005 I had a lot of success with buying links. During this time Google knew link buying was happening, but they didn't punish it aggressively (at least not publicly). When I started buying links "nofollow" didn't even exist.
At the time buying links made a lot of sense. It was an easy way for you to get inbound links to your site with minimal effort. In fact, I used it to raise 50 local dating sites from obscurity to the front page of Google, Yahoo, and MSN in less than a month. These sites had no original content (it was all dynamically scraped using re-purposed search results). Despite my lack of content, I was able to parlay a $10,000 investment in links to a six-figure pay day.
Google caught on to my link buying strategy fairly quickly, but my front page success continued in MSN and Yahoo for almost a year. For me it was about risk vs. reward. I knew that I was putting my sites at risk, but I didn't care. It only took me a few weeks to put the sites together and the domains were less than $10 each.
After my success with these sites I started getting greedy and putting some of my more valuable domains at risk - like the site you're on right now.
When I acquired this domain back in '05 I had a Page Rank of 7 - thanks to some links from authority sites like Commission Junction and others. But that wasn't enough for me...
An opportunity came up in November of '05 to buy a link on Jeremy Zawodny's blog (brokered through Text Link Ads). His blog was considered an authority site with a PR 8. Anybody who knows anything about SEO knows that PR8 sites are extremely rare and links from such sites can give your site a huge lift in the search results.
I made two fatal mistakes when I purchased a link from Jeremy's blog. First, I used a link brokering company to buy the link, which is an automatic red flag. Second, I bought a link on a site that was frequently visited by Google's head of web spam - Matt Cutts.
Matt called out Jeremy's blog in a post a few weeks later. Everybody who had used Text Link Ads to buy a link on his site got hammered. My site went from a PR7 to a PR4 overnight, and Jeremy's blog went from a PR 8 to a PR 5.
I had plenty of legitimate (naturally occurring) links, but I felt like I needed more. Even after being penalized I used PayPerPost to try and get back the #1 spot for my brand name - to no avail.
Since that didn't work I decided to get some inbound links from my own network of sites. I had a few PR6 sites in my portfolio so I decided to link back to Quit Your Day Job from them - even though they weren't contextually relevant; one was a dating site, and the other was a credit repair site.
After sending those two sites to the slaughterhouse (both went from PR6 to PR1 after Google discovered the "unnatural" linking) I decided enough is enough; no more link buying.
There was a point in time when buying links could help you improve your ranking, but that time has come and gone. In addition to Google's army of human editors, who carefully comb through search results every day, they have an official form where you can rat out your competitors when you suspect they've purchased links.
Between Google's editors and your competitors, your chances of keeping paid links under the radar are almost null. When you consider the time and risks involved with buying links in today's climate, you're better off getting links naturally by writing compelling content that people want to link to - see link bait.
People don't realize it (and few will admit it), but being a Black Hat SEO takes as much time and effort as a being a White Hat, and carries 100x more risk. I subscribed to the Black Hat Forums for a few months back in 2006 and couldn't believe how complicated these supposed shortcuts and tricks had become.
There were too many guys in the forum talking about how they went from page 100 to page 1 in two weeks using the latest trick, only to be wiped out a month later when Google caught on.
I'm sure there are examples of tricks that have more shelf life, but one day Google will find it and you'll be penalized. Unless you have the stamina to play cat and mouse with Google, you're better off just playing by the their rules.
Why Blackhats Take The Risk
Thought I'd shed some light on why blackhats take the risk.
Contrary to what Google says, if they catch something one time, that doesn't always make them better at catching it the second time. So if I spend 3 weeks creating some software that can make me rank easy as pie and my first site using it gets nailed a month later, that's fine with me. I've definitely made a profit, and (ideally) can use the same trick to relaunch a new site in under 5 minutes. Just set a cron job to drop the links or whatever every few days, and voila. Eventually it will die out, but god willing it will be awhile.
That said, finding unsaturated tricks or link drops IS very hard, and takes a lot of time and knowledge to find. So there's definitely truth in what you say.
Very interesting Jeremy
What I have a hard time understanding, is why do people use no follow links? Are there that many out posting solely for the purpose of creating a back link? I have a blog, and while it is far from the dream url to have a link to/from, I personally don't intend to block people. We approve comments, so beyond what is automatically caught as spam, we should be able to identify as spam. I just set up my blog (Word Press) and have a bit of 'cleaning up' to do, but have already been spamed a bunch of times (most seem to be the same source and automated).
Its tuff, what do you do? Most of us are good and have no problem helping our 'friends' out. But we have to take a cold stance because of a handful of unscrupulous people.
Basically what I am reading here is; be very careful with link building. Rather, the best idea is to simply contribute with genuine thoughts/ideas and input into topics that are applicable to your site. Not buy fancy blogging software to 'blitz' the net. Just be honest and involved in your theme internet community and you'll just naturally climb and not have to worry about Google slapping you down. The underlying message I see is, pay attention to what Jeremy is up to and you should be alright lol.
Thanks Jeremy for more stellar info!
Jeromy
Every adversity, every failure, every heartache carries with it the seed on an equal or greater benefit.
Napoleon Hill
Google will always win in the end
"Unless you have the stamina to play cat and mouse with Google, you're better off just playing by the their rules."
Very true. It takes just as much effort to figure out how to create a site that Google likes as it does to create one that Google will slap so you may as well play the game the Google way.
If we're reading it, chances are Google is reading it.
Great article Jeremy! Here's something I never quite got... If I can find something on a blackhat forum and read it, there for sure Google's experts are aware of it as well. But yet people still try it. I've tried some things that I knew were maybe bordering on 'grey hat'. The short term results were huge links and traffic. The not-so long term results? Each and every site is banned by Google.
Real relevant and quality content written for the visitor will win in the long run every time.
My goal online is to build a solid business that will grow on itself over time and allow me some freedom. My goal is not to create another day job for myself.
Thanks for sharing the background information.
Best regards,
Joseph
Good article and good eye opener
Hey Jeremy very good article and I was just going to contact you in regards to this.
Jeremy, Thank you for the
Jeremy,
Thank you for the timely post, I have been working on my first site and have been watching alot of seo vidoes and reading post. Linking is one of the best ways to get high google rankings.
If not for marketers like you. We people who have been watching and studying your strategies and following advice you share so openly, would be making some serious mastakes.
Thank you for your time and advice.
Daniel
Great post Jeremy
It's interesting to hear your perspective on the subject, because I have (and still do currently) bought text links from those same text link brokers. However, I have yet to be penalized and drop in ranking because of them....although perhaps it really is just a matter of time. I think I've been able to fly under the radar because I had a lot of natural links already and because the sites I was buying links on were serving the identical market and very similar keywords.
One of the reasons I started buying them on my main site was because I could no longer advertise the site effectively through MySpace itself once they got serious about the phishing problem and established the msplinks system and also later these re-directs that they do now. I used to get a good number of links coming from people's MySpace profiles that had either used my content (with the link at the bottom) or from comments that were left by my site's profile that they had added as a friend. Unfortunately, those links don't count anymore for SEO purposes, so I'm left relying on people using my content on blogs for those important links.
I am rethinking the links I've bought recently however, as I'm paying a good amount of money for them (in relation to the site's income) and they haven't brought me any better organic results. And on the outsmarting Google thing, I agree completely. You might be able to make some quick cash by jumping on the gurus' new "flavor of the month," but once Google turns off the spigot, you're left with nothing. I'd rather spend time building a viable business than fighting search engine algorithms all day.
-Blair
Re: Oh no nooo...you don't love me yes I know now!
Great Post Jeremy!
As they say, if you can't beat them might as well join them.
God bless and Take care,
Maurice
Link Buying
I think its just not worth it. Good Original Content is easier to come up with than figuring out how to trick the SERP. And when the slaps happen you are sitting good. Its just as easy to play by the rules and in the end i think it makes for a better long term investment of my time.
Im still amazed at the number of spam links that try to get on my blogs.
That was a good read
Jeremy,
Thanks for writing that. It is definitely the type of input and influence people who are just getting started need to have. Getting a site noticed on the web can seem like a very daunting task. The temptation to "cheat" using black/gray hat SEO methods can be very tempting.
The more I learn about being successful in this business, the more I realize it's like training to be an athlete. There are all-star athletes that have put in years of effort to work-out, eat healthy, and practice, practice, practice. They have gotten where they are and achieved what they have because of all of their hard work and dedication.
Then there are those who have used questionable methods to try and get an edge over their competition. Sure, it may have required a lot of hard work and dedication also...but there's always going to be those little what-ifs in the back of their minds.
What if my secret gets out?
What if I get caught?
What if I end up losing everything?!
I would imagine that using black hat methods to get a site better rankings would cause those same what-ifs to creep up. Especially after achieving a measure of success. As the saying goes - the more you have, the more you have to lose.
While it may take more time and work to get there, I would imagine that creating a site with legitimate content that people genuinely find useful will be so much more rewarding in the long run. Both in the sense of accomplishment, and on payday!
-Carl
do you twitter? i do!
http://twitter.com/htxb
Mixed feelings...
Obviously a great post. I've firmly been on the white-hat bandwagon since my introduction to affiliate marketing.
Recently however, I've gotten intrigued by the lure of the fast buck... thankfully I've come to my senses and I'm focusing on what I know best. White-hat all the way.
But what concerns me the most is that you admitted how dramatic your SEO results have been, when QYDJ and PPC Classroom were all about PPC, not SEO.
As I learn more and more about the affiliate marketing community, it seems that most, if not all, of the current Guru's made their fortune's before 2006, using black-hat techniques. Now that those methods aren't working anymore they've resorted to making money teaching people white-hat techniques (which they have limited experience with).
Since the first time I read anything you've written, I've respected your work. I think you are a phenomenal teacher and all-around good guy.
But now I am confused. I thought you used pure white-hat, PPC techniques to make your fortune but it appears that I was incorrect.
Please set me straight.
Thanks and keep up the fantastic job.
Mike
Interesting points...
But what concerns me the most is that you admitted how dramatic your SEO results have been, when QYDJ and PPC Classroom were all about PPC, not SEO.
I achieved 90% of my success and revenue from good old-fashioned white hat PPC. Anybody who's been following me for any length of time knows that. If you've read my book you'll note that this is the main emphasis of what I teach.
Over my affiliate career SEO has played a small role (less than 10% of revenue). I've never claimed to be an SEO expert, and have always deferred to people who are superstars like Aaron Wall. I have a chapter in my book explaining the basics, but don't go into the same details as other professionals do.
For the record, I've never claimed or been accused of being a top SEO, and less than 10% of my revenue comes from this source ;)
As I learn more and more about the affiliate marketing community, it seems that most, if not all, of the current Guru's made their fortune's before 2006, using black-hat techniques. Now that those methods aren't working anymore they've resorted to making money teaching people white-hat techniques (which they have limited experience with).
I want to make 3 clarifying points:
1 - I've had 10x more success as an affiliate than I've ever had selling products.
2 - I don't sell info products. My book, videos, Black Ink Project, and all content on this site is 100% free.
3 - I've made more money as an affiliate since 2006 than I ever made before this time.
Finally a word about SEO... I think you would be hard pressed to find an SEO who hasn't dabbled in gray or black hat tactics. I'm not talking about bad stuff like comment spamming, hacking etc. I would wager 99% of SEO's have purchased, or currently purchase links. It's just a fact of life.
This made me think of a post Sugarrae made a while back:
Paid links should be treated the same as any other links. That is simply the way the world works. Some people buy their marketing, some create it via guerilla methods (like developing organic links) - but it all boils down to engineered results from marketing efforts.
I understand what you're trying to say, and I'm sure that there are some "potion and voodoo" gurus out there still coasting from their past success... however if you look around the site, you'll see that QuitYourDayJob.com offers a lot more than outdated tricks and quick money-making schemes.
Nothing is black hat until Google says it is black hat
I've got no problems with link buying back in 2005. I've been affiliate marketing since about 2004. Back then I avoided link buying because it was considered black hat even though Google was barely even policing black hat SEO.
When I first started affiliate marketing, I tried to avoid using the black hat SEO techniques and I didn't think I would have any luck using white hat SEO techniques. Luckily there was PPC and at that time it was "anything goes" with PPC. I thought I was doing the right thing.
What I didn't realize back then was that Google would eventually deem just about everything I was doing with PPC a form of black hat. (Or at least an undesirable practice).
Things such as running PPC ads that used my affiliate link as the destination page. Or using a one page "sales letter" website with only affiliate links leading away from it as my landing page.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that much of yesterday's white/gray hat techniques have become today's black hat. Just as today's white/gray hat techniques will become tomorrow's black hat. So don't be too quick to judge someone for what they did a few years ago.
To our success,
Tony
If you consider Google, how
If you consider Google, how much of their content is original?
Why is the Google landing page a PR8 or 9 but Yahoo and MSN are much lower?
Bottom line is if we want to play with Google, we have to play by their rules.
As I expected....
Jeremy,
Great response to my question. I didn't expect anything less.
You answers definitely cleared things up. As I said, I have always thought very highly of you and the great services you give us n00bs.
My comments were partly the result of my own frustration with some recently failed campaigns. I was beginning to doubt my ability to make this work. I also started reading forums like digitalpoint and wickedfire, which only exasperated the issue because I got caught up in the hype trying to make thousands a day in the oversaturated niches (like ringtones) using black and gray hat techniques. I tried a few ill-conceived techniques/campaigns lost a few bucks and it killed my motivation.
I guess I just need to refocus my efforts and get off my butt!
Thanks again Jeremy for everything, you inspire and motivate me.
Mike
All about the rank
I think your blog is just amazing and what you are doing in trying to help us create wealth is truly giving back. My issue is I am not sure about how one gets their page so high on a page rank...it just seems like alot tricks and software are needed , one cannot just have a good site or webpage anymore.
inbound links
Hi Guys,
I've done some surfing on the subject and I have found top 10 results for sites that have any where from 0 inbound links to 40 inbound links. I think this thing with links is probably over rated. That being said, I asked one chocolate site to list my site and guess what they told me? I would need to make a minimum commitment of $20,000 per month. Considering most commission on cj, etc are less than 15% is one lousy link worth it?
google
hi,
i do agree that google is very powerful and like it started the pr and its policies. but lately, there are many problems that google is facing. the adsense working crazy, the search engine war, etc.
So, i guess there wouldnt be much focus on PRs.